On characters and chances...
Petr Zuska (host): You come from Mexico, anyway, you have lived for a long time in Finland and created this ballet (i.e. Sleeping Beauty) for the Finnish National Ballet. Why Finland and how does your Mexican temperament comply with the rather calm, settled down nordic soul?
Javier Torres: Well, I don't think my coming to Finland was a mere coincidence, because I don't really believe in coincidences as such. I believe that things happen the way they were meant to be. I didn't go there for some "love of Finland" thing, although I have eventually fallen in love with that country. However, the main reason for my living there so long was my profession I am completely devoted to. As for the compliance of my temperament with the Finnish soul, in fact, I suffer from quite a lot of neuroses that go very well with the Finnish silence... so all in all, it's a question of personality rather than some compatibility with the so-called national character. On the other hand, because I'm quite hyperactive, Finland has sort of harmonised my character, I'm more grounded now. In Mexico City, where I come from there are so many things going on that you have really no chance to get settled a bit. And if you're not down-to-earth, you never really succeed in anything, you simply cannot focus with a bustle like this around you.
PZ: Speaking about neuroses.. your last name is Torres and in Spanish toro is bull... Is there any connection between those two? And by any chance, weren't you born in the Zodiac sign of Taurus - bull? And if so, do you believe in astrology and horoscopes?
JZ: Well, there is no actual relationship between the words toro and torres - toro means bull and torres means towers. Funily, I didn't like my name when I was young, but eventually I get used to it. I've grown a bit since then too, so now I finally fit more to the meaning of my last name. My first name Javier then comes from Arabic and means "the one who brings light". And yes, I do believe in astrological signs, I think it is a really precise science and I have worked with many good and qualified astrologists.
If I were born in Taurus I would never have so much trouble in my life, because they stand still. But I'm a perfect example of my sign, I'm a Libra, up and down all the time, and air is my element so I travel like hell.
On Prague and the Czech Republic...
PZ: As far as your name is concerned, I want to point out that we say Prague is a city of one hundred towers so I think you're in the right place now.
JT: I am, I am, I love this city. Every time I get lost I stumble upon a tower! (he laughs)
PZ: Now you have been around here for quite some time, so what impression have you got from Prague and what impression have you got from our ballet company you have been working with.
JT: As for the city, I think it's one of the most beautiful cities I have ever seen, but unfortunately , because I have been working a lot I haven't seen much. I love taking photos, so I take my camera with me everywhere and look for details. Actually, it's not me who finds the details, on the contrary, details find me. There is something about this city that makes every corner, every angle really astonishing and beautiful. Recently I told a friend of mine that I could fall in love with this city and he said: "Be careful because once you do, it will never let you go." (he laughs)
As for my work with the ballet company, it's a different kind of field, I love working with them as there is a certain devotion that I don't find with many companies. But I have to be careful with the word devotion, because it can somehow imply someone who gives for nothing, but I mean it more as a love for their work.
PZ: Well, I guess you don't find it with many other companies because in our company they almost do work for nothing.
JT: Yes I know... and it makes me sad. That's why I admire them even more. Anyway, every time you work with someone it's a teamwork, a game, a ping pong – I give something and they give something back. If I didn't give anything, I wouldn't get much back either. And I think we play a great game.
On love and fear...
PZ: Now let's get back to the production of Sleeping Beauty you're working on now. I think it is interesting that you have created a sort of shift from a classical fairy tale describing a conflict between good and evil to a struggle between love and fear, could you tell us more about it?
JT: Yes, I wanted to change the philosofical point of the fairy tale. Anyway, it is still an important tool how to educate people. In past, when there were no computers or the gadgets we have today, a fairy tale was an important way of children education.. One of the advantages of fairy tales is that they allow the imagination to develop, while many of the things we have today are very concrete. Nowadays I think we, children and adults alike, lack imagination. Thus creating a fairy tale on stage brings the possibility to imagine, to dream, to be somewhere else. Now the reason for the shift from good and evil to the concept of love and fear was that I wanted it to be more universal. Sure, good and evil are universal, but the concepts vary a lot in every culture. For example, in certain cultures having more women than one is good, in other cultures it is considered bad...
PZ: And is it really bad?
JT: Oh, sorry, you're one of those, but be careful.. (he laughs) Anyway, good and evil are more related to moral values. And moral values are determined by cultures. On the other hand, love and fear are related to feelings. And even though feelings can be affected by cultures too, there is something very human and animalistic about them. You can say about someone that she is nicely dressed and another person would not agree with you. But if you say I love this person everybody will understand because everybody knows what love is. I think that every morning you can choose whether you will live this day in love or in fear. And this choice is at a spiritual level superior to whether you live in good or in bad. Many people dress with fear, on their minds, they're afraid they won't be respected in job, they won't be liked. And on the contrary, many people love what they wear. And they don't care. Actually, you can apply this choice on anything in life. So I chose to make this production with love and I try to put this philosophy into the ballet. It may not be obvious at first sight, but if the dancers know this, it will be felt from the stage.
PZ: I think this is a very difficult task, I mean make people understand they should live in love as many people actually do live in fear. How did you go about it?
JT: I listen to what my heart says and I think the best way to tell whether you have chosen the right way or not is the joy you feel when you’re on the right track. But this doesn‘t mean it is easy. It doesn’t mean that the people who live in love will not feel fear. We all have our fears. What is important is to overcome them through love. Sometimes I have to face my fear and sometimes my choices come from fear because I didn’t have the strenght to overcome it. But the very awareness that I did something for fear means I can do it for love one day. So it is not about solving the problem, it is about making our choices everyday. I wish I had an easy solution to that.
On roses and making love...
PZ: Let’s talk about the rose now. In your production the rose is a very strong symbol, because it is a symbol of beauty and at the same time it is dangerous because of the small thorns. I think this is what makes it a good metaphor, a metaphor of life maybe. What does the rose mean to you?
JT: In Freud’s interpretation of this fairy tale there are certain points I find very interesting, because when he explains them they seem to be quite evident. Personally, I didn’t want to base the ballet on Freud’s concept as it is a very sexual one. But then, making love is a part of our life too, and as such it can be done either out of love or out of fear. Anyway, rose is not a part of the original tale, where the heroine hurts herself with a needle, not a rose. But in many ballets it is substitued by a thorn of a rose or by a needle hidden in the rose. In either way, the important thing is the pricking itself, which symbolizes the loss of virginity. In the tale she pricks the finger at the time she is teenage and blooms sexualy, which is about the age of 16. And from Freud’s point of view this exactly what children were taught when they were about this age, I mean that something like that will happen if they are not careful. In those times sex was taboo and losing one’s virginity was not something people would talk about with children. So there we have the symbol of rose. And it is a symbol of seduction, too. Even nowadays if you want to seduce a woman or even a man you give them a rose. Anyone would advise you to give the person you desire a red rose and not white tulips. Moreover, the red colour is very carnal, it is the colour of flesh, of blood. This is the more wordly, more grounded aspect of the fairy tale.
On ballet and choreography...
PZ: Now, the production you have been mounting in Prague is not a world premiere as it was originally created for the Finnish National Ballet, however, you have changed quite a lot of things since then. When we spoke about this ballet about year and a half ago, I gave you my opinion on it. To what extent have my remarks affected the decisions you have made in terms of the modification of this produciton and to what extent have they been affected by your current state of mind and the situation in our ballet company.
JT: Well I think all of them have been important. There were several remarks Petr made at the beggining such as the one regarding the male character of Carabosse. When I first saw the company I saw this man (Alexander Katsapov) and I thought he would be a great Carabosse. When I told this to Petr, he agreed, but also said: "Don´t you think the role is too easy for him?" And he was right, so I have changed it a bit. But yeah, my state of mind is definitely different from when I first created it and it pretty much affects the way I see this ballet nowadays. Back then I was in a very bad heath condition and now, when I look at the original production I find some things in dramaturgy quite illogical. I have studied theatrical direction as well, so at least I can rework the story a bit and make it somewhat more logical. But what has made me change the production the most is the dancers. I think one of my qualities as a Libra is my adaptability.
When I rehearse with a particular dancer, I say alright, but maybe we could do it in a different way and in the end we find a compromise. Actually, steps in classical ballet are combined in sequences I really don't insist on. As long as the dancer looks the best he or she can and respects the overall style I have chosen I have no problems with that.
PZ: Talking about contemporary productions of classical ballets, what do you think one should take into consideration and strive for when staging them these days?
JT: I think it is a personal choice of every choreographer. Anyway, to me, the most important thing to make classical ballets more valued is to shorten them. I don't mean we need to shorten them to make them more accessible for audiences, Wagner can be very difficult to watch too but once you make it through the 6 hours it all comes together and you know precisely why you were sitting there. However in ballet we often lack a clear dramaturgical line that would wind throughout the choreoghraphy. Instead, there is a lot of dancing that really doesn’t have to be there to get the story. You know, in the old days there used to be chandeliers in theatres that could not be switched off completely, so there was always some light. So when the audiences got bored, they could you just look around, it was more of a social event than today when we go to the theatre because of art. And there are many parts in classical ballets that really do not make the plot stronger, on contrary, they weaken it. So if you want to come and see just a ballet technique, there are people that will do the four-hour version, and it is great. But it can appeal just to a very limited audience. And I think ballet shoud be accesible to all spectators.
On positive and negative input...
PZ: Let’s talk about your teaching career now. You have worked as a pedagogue all over the world. What do you think is most important for teaching ballet, where – in global terms – do you see most mistakes and what can be still improved?
JT: I’ve done a research over the past twelve years and what I realized is that in teaching ballet, more emphasis should be put on the theory of positive and negative input. There is actually a great deal of research on the topic and, thought I think the ballet methodics and teaching in general has been gradually improving, there is still too much of a negative input there. To explain what the negative input is, there is one saying that many dance teachers follow: „break the dancer to make the dancer“. And how to break a dancer? Yell at him, hit him, tell him he’s shit. And a lot of ballet schools follow this type of teaching. Even with children, teachers keep telling them they do it wrong, they should repeat it once more and so on and so forth... I mean, a positive attitude doesn’t mean that we would just praise a dancer all the time but still, you really don’t have to scream at someone to tell him or her: this is not working. I think there is a big difference when you tell the dancer who just finished a difficult variation: „That was no good, your arms should have been here, your legs weren´t here, we have wasted 10 hours about it already“ and on the contrary, when you tell him „hey look, I think your diagonal didn’t work, how do you feel about that?“ The reason why for so many centuries we have been using this type of negative input is the hierarchy in ballet. Now we have corps the ballet, demi-soloists, soloists, prima ballerinas, super stars, extra stars, the boss, the super boss etc. And it is this hierarchy that constantly keeps people in fear. And it prevents them from growing too. Because when dancers always hear they are bad, they just accept it and never analyse why, they just want to hear they are good. Now if we changed that and made dancers think about it as adults, it would make all the teachers and ballet masters less important because the dancer could probably realize then: „I know my shoulder was not working.“ But instead, many dancers are waiting for someone to tell them the shoulder was not working. What really amazes me is that many times I teach a professional that has been dancing for years and years. And when I ask him or her: „Why did you fall there?“, they say: „I have no idea.“ But it was them who fell, not me, so how could I tell them? It just doesn’t work this way.
Another think that people adore about negative input is that it gives results very quickly. If I shout at someone: „Get up straight!“, they will, but once I stop, it is gone. When I shout at them in the class, they do it, but once I stop when they are on the stage, they fail. People simply become dependent on the negative input. It takes more time to get results from the positive one, but those are permanent. So I think we should apply it.
PZ: Well, but the dancing career is so short... (he laughs)
JT: That’s why you need a lot of patience.
On Mexico and dance...
PZ: Could you tell us something about the professional dance scene in Mexico aside of the National Ballet of Mexico?
JT: Actually, ballet came to Mexico as early as 1680 or 1690, but it was not before 1960s that it developed as an artistic form in its own right. The first national ballet company in Mexico was founded in 1977, however, there had been already two big modern dance companies around, subsidized by the government. Even today there is just one ballet and one modern dance company sponsored by the government, but in addition to that there are lots and lots of small contemporary dance companies, sometimes it is just a duo or a trio but they are very well established. Originally they were very much based on Graham technique that came over from the US, but nowadays they are more diversified, you could find there contact improvisation, butó etc. But most of all, Mexico is incredibly rich in the folk art that comes from the prechristian period. Some of the original folk dances have merged with the Spanish heritage that arrived later - at some places in Mexico you can for instance come across various hybrids of folk dances and flamenco. Training period in folk dance is the same as in ballet, 8 years.
On creativity and struggle...
PZ: You do many things in your life, apart from dance it is also acting, singing, pottery/ceramics, photography, you're even trained in psychology... is it because all those things te naplnuji or is it becaude of a certain unwillingness to specialize?
JT: You know I get bored very easily (he laughs) To create is both my talent and my curse. But once I really get into something, I move on to do something completely different, I simply love to do many things at the same time. Anyway, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't try to be as good as I can in those things. I understand that in order to achieve a certain level at something you also need to dedicate to it certain amount of time. That's why I focus most of all on dance, because I have dedicated the biggest part of my life to dance. As for the dance research, I've been doing it just for twelve years, so I´m just a baby in the field. But you mentioned pottery - I remember that after 6 months of doing it I wanted to make an exhibition. But my teacher told me „only when you are ready“. So I thought it would take me two more months to "be ready" and in the end it was like 5 years till my teacher finally told me to go ahead. So now as I'm getting closer to my 50s, I understand that I need to think more about what I want to do in the future because it will take me some time to achieve something in the field.
PZ: Although ballet has always been your main focus, you have had times when you wanted to stop dancing. Can you tell us about it?
JT: I think that in your life you have to struggle with everything you love from time to time. And your profession is pretty much like a personal relationship. From my point of view when you are in love with somebody it is only after the first fight that you know you really care about this person. I have had this fight with my profession three times. Not because of my ego, but because of the self destruction of our bodies that is inevitable in ballet. But I understand that in our lives we all search and strive to become the best version of ourselves we are capable of. Now I speak about a siritual vision, something that goes beyond our minds. Sometimes we can’t even tell why we are doing this, yet there is some subconscious urge. And then when I see the Swan Lake and forget all the pain and difficulties behind it, I’m mesmerized by the beauty of motion there. It is as if I’ve just seen the best version of those dancers there. Actually, I think that many dancers on the stage really transform themselves into a dream, into a soul. We indulge in materializing the best version of ourselves. And this is worth all the pain behind it.
A transcription of the stage interview between Petr Zuska, the artistic director of National Theatre Ballet and choreographer Javier Torres at the New Stage of the National Theatre in March 2012. Edited version.
Photo: Flavio Bizzarri
Recorded by Lucie Burešová
A Stage Interview with Javier Torres, Author of National Theatre Ballet’s Sleeping Beauty
Interviews
On characters and chances...
Petr Zuska (host): You come from Mexico, anyway, you have lived for a long time in Finland and created this ballet (i.e. Sleeping Beauty) for the Finnish National Ballet. Why Finland and how does your Mexican temperament comply with the rather calm, settled down nordic soul?
Javier Torres: Well, I don't think my coming to Finland was a mere coincidence, because I don't really believe in coincidences as such. I believe that things happen the way they were meant to be. I didn't go there for some "love of Finland" thing, although I have eventually fallen in love with that country. However, the main reason for my living there so long was my profession I am completely devoted to. As for the compliance of my temperament with the Finnish soul, in fact, I suffer from quite a lot of neuroses that go very well with the Finnish silence... so all in all, it's a question of personality rather than some compatibility with the so-called national character. On the other hand, because I'm quite hyperactive, Finland has sort of harmonised my character, I'm more grounded now. In Mexico City, where I come from there are so many things going on that you have really no chance to get settled a bit. And if you're not down-to-earth, you never really succeed in anything, you simply cannot focus with a bustle like this around you.
PZ: Speaking about neuroses.. your last name is Torres and in Spanish toro is bull... Is there any connection between those two? And by any chance, weren't you born in the Zodiac sign of Taurus - bull? And if so, do you believe in astrology and horoscopes?
JZ: Well, there is no actual relationship between the words toro and torres - toro means bull and torres means towers. Funily, I didn't like my name when I was young, but eventually I get used to it. I've grown a bit since then too, so now I finally fit more to the meaning of my last name. My first name Javier then comes from Arabic and means "the one who brings light". And yes, I do believe in astrological signs, I think it is a really precise science and I have worked with many good and qualified astrologists.
If I were born in Taurus I would never have so much trouble in my life, because they stand still. But I'm a perfect example of my sign, I'm a Libra, up and down all the time, and air is my element so I travel like hell.
On Prague and the Czech Republic...
PZ: As far as your name is concerned, I want to point out that we say Prague is a city of one hundred towers so I think you're in the right place now.
JT: I am, I am, I love this city. Every time I get lost I stumble upon a tower! (he laughs)
PZ: Now you have been around here for quite some time, so what impression have you got from Prague and what impression have you got from our ballet company you have been working with.
JT: As for the city, I think it's one of the most beautiful cities I have ever seen, but unfortunately , because I have been working a lot I haven't seen much. I love taking photos, so I take my camera with me everywhere and look for details. Actually, it's not me who finds the details, on the contrary, details find me. There is something about this city that makes every corner, every angle really astonishing and beautiful. Recently I told a friend of mine that I could fall in love with this city and he said: "Be careful because once you do, it will never let you go." (he laughs)
As for my work with the ballet company, it's a different kind of field, I love working with them as there is a certain devotion that I don't find with many companies. But I have to be careful with the word devotion, because it can somehow imply someone who gives for nothing, but I mean it more as a love for their work.
PZ: Well, I guess you don't find it with many other companies because in our company they almost do work for nothing.
JT: Yes I know... and it makes me sad. That's why I admire them even more. Anyway, every time you work with someone it's a teamwork, a game, a ping pong – I give something and they give something back. If I didn't give anything, I wouldn't get much back either. And I think we play a great game.
On love and fear...
PZ: Now let's get back to the production of Sleeping Beauty you're working on now. I think it is interesting that you have created a sort of shift from a classical fairy tale describing a conflict between good and evil to a struggle between love and fear, could you tell us more about it?
JT: Yes, I wanted to change the philosofical point of the fairy tale. Anyway, it is still an important tool how to educate people. In past, when there were no computers or the gadgets we have today, a fairy tale was an important way of children education.. One of the advantages of fairy tales is that they allow the imagination to develop, while many of the things we have today are very concrete. Nowadays I think we, children and adults alike, lack imagination. Thus creating a fairy tale on stage brings the possibility to imagine, to dream, to be somewhere else. Now the reason for the shift from good and evil to the concept of love and fear was that I wanted it to be more universal. Sure, good and evil are universal, but the concepts vary a lot in every culture. For example, in certain cultures having more women than one is good, in other cultures it is considered bad...
PZ: And is it really bad?
JT: Oh, sorry, you're one of those, but be careful.. (he laughs) Anyway, good and evil are more related to moral values. And moral values are determined by cultures. On the other hand, love and fear are related to feelings. And even though feelings can be affected by cultures too, there is something very human and animalistic about them. You can say about someone that she is nicely dressed and another person would not agree with you. But if you say I love this person everybody will understand because everybody knows what love is. I think that every morning you can choose whether you will live this day in love or in fear. And this choice is at a spiritual level superior to whether you live in good or in bad. Many people dress with fear, on their minds, they're afraid they won't be respected in job, they won't be liked. And on the contrary, many people love what they wear. And they don't care. Actually, you can apply this choice on anything in life. So I chose to make this production with love and I try to put this philosophy into the ballet. It may not be obvious at first sight, but if the dancers know this, it will be felt from the stage.
PZ: I think this is a very difficult task, I mean make people understand they should live in love as many people actually do live in fear. How did you go about it?
JT: I listen to what my heart says and I think the best way to tell whether you have chosen the right way or not is the joy you feel when you’re on the right track. But this doesn‘t mean it is easy. It doesn’t mean that the people who live in love will not feel fear. We all have our fears. What is important is to overcome them through love. Sometimes I have to face my fear and sometimes my choices come from fear because I didn’t have the strenght to overcome it. But the very awareness that I did something for fear means I can do it for love one day. So it is not about solving the problem, it is about making our choices everyday. I wish I had an easy solution to that.
On roses and making love...
PZ: Let’s talk about the rose now. In your production the rose is a very strong symbol, because it is a symbol of beauty and at the same time it is dangerous because of the small thorns. I think this is what makes it a good metaphor, a metaphor of life maybe. What does the rose mean to you?
JT: In Freud’s interpretation of this fairy tale there are certain points I find very interesting, because when he explains them they seem to be quite evident. Personally, I didn’t want to base the ballet on Freud’s concept as it is a very sexual one. But then, making love is a part of our life too, and as such it can be done either out of love or out of fear. Anyway, rose is not a part of the original tale, where the heroine hurts herself with a needle, not a rose. But in many ballets it is substitued by a thorn of a rose or by a needle hidden in the rose. In either way, the important thing is the pricking itself, which symbolizes the loss of virginity. In the tale she pricks the finger at the time she is teenage and blooms sexualy, which is about the age of 16. And from Freud’s point of view this exactly what children were taught when they were about this age, I mean that something like that will happen if they are not careful. In those times sex was taboo and losing one’s virginity was not something people would talk about with children. So there we have the symbol of rose. And it is a symbol of seduction, too. Even nowadays if you want to seduce a woman or even a man you give them a rose. Anyone would advise you to give the person you desire a red rose and not white tulips. Moreover, the red colour is very carnal, it is the colour of flesh, of blood. This is the more wordly, more grounded aspect of the fairy tale.
On ballet and choreography...
PZ: Now, the production you have been mounting in Prague is not a world premiere as it was originally created for the Finnish National Ballet, however, you have changed quite a lot of things since then. When we spoke about this ballet about year and a half ago, I gave you my opinion on it. To what extent have my remarks affected the decisions you have made in terms of the modification of this produciton and to what extent have they been affected by your current state of mind and the situation in our ballet company.
JT: Well I think all of them have been important. There were several remarks Petr made at the beggining such as the one regarding the male character of Carabosse. When I first saw the company I saw this man (Alexander Katsapov) and I thought he would be a great Carabosse. When I told this to Petr, he agreed, but also said: "Don´t you think the role is too easy for him?" And he was right, so I have changed it a bit. But yeah, my state of mind is definitely different from when I first created it and it pretty much affects the way I see this ballet nowadays. Back then I was in a very bad heath condition and now, when I look at the original production I find some things in dramaturgy quite illogical. I have studied theatrical direction as well, so at least I can rework the story a bit and make it somewhat more logical. But what has made me change the production the most is the dancers. I think one of my qualities as a Libra is my adaptability.
When I rehearse with a particular dancer, I say alright, but maybe we could do it in a different way and in the end we find a compromise. Actually, steps in classical ballet are combined in sequences I really don't insist on. As long as the dancer looks the best he or she can and respects the overall style I have chosen I have no problems with that.
PZ: Talking about contemporary productions of classical ballets, what do you think one should take into consideration and strive for when staging them these days?
JT: I think it is a personal choice of every choreographer. Anyway, to me, the most important thing to make classical ballets more valued is to shorten them. I don't mean we need to shorten them to make them more accessible for audiences, Wagner can be very difficult to watch too but once you make it through the 6 hours it all comes together and you know precisely why you were sitting there. However in ballet we often lack a clear dramaturgical line that would wind throughout the choreoghraphy. Instead, there is a lot of dancing that really doesn’t have to be there to get the story. You know, in the old days there used to be chandeliers in theatres that could not be switched off completely, so there was always some light. So when the audiences got bored, they could you just look around, it was more of a social event than today when we go to the theatre because of art. And there are many parts in classical ballets that really do not make the plot stronger, on contrary, they weaken it. So if you want to come and see just a ballet technique, there are people that will do the four-hour version, and it is great. But it can appeal just to a very limited audience. And I think ballet shoud be accesible to all spectators.
On positive and negative input...
PZ: Let’s talk about your teaching career now. You have worked as a pedagogue all over the world. What do you think is most important for teaching ballet, where – in global terms – do you see most mistakes and what can be still improved?
JT: I’ve done a research over the past twelve years and what I realized is that in teaching ballet, more emphasis should be put on the theory of positive and negative input. There is actually a great deal of research on the topic and, thought I think the ballet methodics and teaching in general has been gradually improving, there is still too much of a negative input there. To explain what the negative input is, there is one saying that many dance teachers follow: „break the dancer to make the dancer“. And how to break a dancer? Yell at him, hit him, tell him he’s shit. And a lot of ballet schools follow this type of teaching. Even with children, teachers keep telling them they do it wrong, they should repeat it once more and so on and so forth... I mean, a positive attitude doesn’t mean that we would just praise a dancer all the time but still, you really don’t have to scream at someone to tell him or her: this is not working. I think there is a big difference when you tell the dancer who just finished a difficult variation: „That was no good, your arms should have been here, your legs weren´t here, we have wasted 10 hours about it already“ and on the contrary, when you tell him „hey look, I think your diagonal didn’t work, how do you feel about that?“ The reason why for so many centuries we have been using this type of negative input is the hierarchy in ballet. Now we have corps the ballet, demi-soloists, soloists, prima ballerinas, super stars, extra stars, the boss, the super boss etc. And it is this hierarchy that constantly keeps people in fear. And it prevents them from growing too. Because when dancers always hear they are bad, they just accept it and never analyse why, they just want to hear they are good. Now if we changed that and made dancers think about it as adults, it would make all the teachers and ballet masters less important because the dancer could probably realize then: „I know my shoulder was not working.“ But instead, many dancers are waiting for someone to tell them the shoulder was not working. What really amazes me is that many times I teach a professional that has been dancing for years and years. And when I ask him or her: „Why did you fall there?“, they say: „I have no idea.“ But it was them who fell, not me, so how could I tell them? It just doesn’t work this way.
Another think that people adore about negative input is that it gives results very quickly. If I shout at someone: „Get up straight!“, they will, but once I stop, it is gone. When I shout at them in the class, they do it, but once I stop when they are on the stage, they fail. People simply become dependent on the negative input. It takes more time to get results from the positive one, but those are permanent. So I think we should apply it.
PZ: Well, but the dancing career is so short... (he laughs)
JT: That’s why you need a lot of patience.
On Mexico and dance...
PZ: Could you tell us something about the professional dance scene in Mexico aside of the National Ballet of Mexico?
JT: Actually, ballet came to Mexico as early as 1680 or 1690, but it was not before 1960s that it developed as an artistic form in its own right. The first national ballet company in Mexico was founded in 1977, however, there had been already two big modern dance companies around, subsidized by the government. Even today there is just one ballet and one modern dance company sponsored by the government, but in addition to that there are lots and lots of small contemporary dance companies, sometimes it is just a duo or a trio but they are very well established. Originally they were very much based on Graham technique that came over from the US, but nowadays they are more diversified, you could find there contact improvisation, butó etc. But most of all, Mexico is incredibly rich in the folk art that comes from the prechristian period. Some of the original folk dances have merged with the Spanish heritage that arrived later - at some places in Mexico you can for instance come across various hybrids of folk dances and flamenco. Training period in folk dance is the same as in ballet, 8 years.
On creativity and struggle...
PZ: You do many things in your life, apart from dance it is also acting, singing, pottery/ceramics, photography, you're even trained in psychology... is it because all those things te naplnuji or is it becaude of a certain unwillingness to specialize?
JT: You know I get bored very easily (he laughs) To create is both my talent and my curse. But once I really get into something, I move on to do something completely different, I simply love to do many things at the same time. Anyway, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't try to be as good as I can in those things. I understand that in order to achieve a certain level at something you also need to dedicate to it certain amount of time. That's why I focus most of all on dance, because I have dedicated the biggest part of my life to dance. As for the dance research, I've been doing it just for twelve years, so I´m just a baby in the field. But you mentioned pottery - I remember that after 6 months of doing it I wanted to make an exhibition. But my teacher told me „only when you are ready“. So I thought it would take me two more months to "be ready" and in the end it was like 5 years till my teacher finally told me to go ahead. So now as I'm getting closer to my 50s, I understand that I need to think more about what I want to do in the future because it will take me some time to achieve something in the field.
PZ: Although ballet has always been your main focus, you have had times when you wanted to stop dancing. Can you tell us about it?
JT: I think that in your life you have to struggle with everything you love from time to time. And your profession is pretty much like a personal relationship. From my point of view when you are in love with somebody it is only after the first fight that you know you really care about this person. I have had this fight with my profession three times. Not because of my ego, but because of the self destruction of our bodies that is inevitable in ballet. But I understand that in our lives we all search and strive to become the best version of ourselves we are capable of. Now I speak about a siritual vision, something that goes beyond our minds. Sometimes we can’t even tell why we are doing this, yet there is some subconscious urge. And then when I see the Swan Lake and forget all the pain and difficulties behind it, I’m mesmerized by the beauty of motion there. It is as if I’ve just seen the best version of those dancers there. Actually, I think that many dancers on the stage really transform themselves into a dream, into a soul. We indulge in materializing the best version of ourselves. And this is worth all the pain behind it.
A transcription of the stage interview between Petr Zuska, the artistic director of National Theatre Ballet and choreographer Javier Torres at the New Stage of the National Theatre in March 2012. Edited version.
Photo: Flavio Bizzarri
Recorded by Lucie Burešová
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Josef Bartos
Thank you for your thoughts. One got stuck in my mind – that passion makes us different from AI. Just yesterday I read…I am a dance critic. I am a member of an endangered species